The founders of Sydney’s newest craft brewery, Chuck & Son’s Brewing Company, join us this episode of the Drinks Adventures podcast.
And yes, we’re talking about Chuck Hahn, who is sensationally making a return to the brewing industry in partnership with his son Scott.
Chuck notched up 50 years in the brewing industry in 2021, which we celebrated on this podcast with a special documentary episode.
- Click here to open episode in your podcast player
I naively thought that would be a footnote to his incredible career. But Chuck has unfinished business.
And together with Scott, the next chapter begins May 2024 at a new brewery in St Peters in the inner west.
It is of course an exceedingly difficult market to launch a new brewery, even if you’re Chuck Hahn.
So we’ll address some of those challenges later on in this interview with Chuck and Scott.
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Chuck Hahn worth billions to Lion, says MD James Brindley
ATO unmoved by brewers’ protests over independence definition
Chuck & Son’s Brewing Co: Full transcript
JAMES ATKINSON: Chuck, I must say, I never thought I’d be talking to you in this capacity again, to be honest. I thought I’d see you around from time to time. But not launching a new brewery.
CHUCK HAHN: Yes. No, it’s quite amazing, isn’t it?
JAMES ATKINSON: I mean, I’m surprised, but not surprised in a way, you know?
CHUCK HAHN: Well, when you start brewing in 1971, you know, you have had a lot of experience, over those years and don’t want to give up on all that straight away.
JAMES ATKINSON: I’m just trying to think, when was it that, when we did that special episode of the podcast celebrating your 50 years in the industry. When was it, I think, that you actually retired from Lion?
CHUCK HAHN: Well, I retired in, let’s see, August 2022. Yep. End of August 22. And then we kept having that celebration, planning that celebration. We had to keep putting it off because of COVID and finally snuck it in in December, I guess it was, yeah.
JAMES ATKINSON: And your last day of work for Lion?
CHUCK HAHN: Lion was the end of August 22. Yeah.
JAMES ATKINSON: And so was this idea already being bounced around prior to that point? I guess it would have been, because I know these types of projects have a pretty long lead time, Scott.
SCOTT HAHN: Yeah, absolutely. Very long lead time. You know, at least a couple of years of planning and intentional planning, of seeing where an opportunity was in the marketplace for a brand, I guess, leaning into that nostalgic craft brand. So, something that we wanted to bring to the market that I guess we can bring a reliable and, you know, certain product to consumers, ones that they want to keep coming back for more. It’s a, perfect, I guess, blending of that old and that new. And I guess Dad was never going to stop. So I thought he has so much more to give the industry and so many more brews that he loves. And the opportunity was there to start Chuck and Son’s Brewing Company.
Who is Scott Hahn?
JAMES ATKINSON: Tell me a bit more about yourself, Scott, because I didn’t really know much too much about your background.
SCOTT HAHN: Yeah, sure. So in terms of a quick walk-through of my career, I started a trainee cadetship programme at a Big Four accounting firm, back in the day, which allowed me to work full-time while studying part-time through a business degree. That was, some great experiences, really good, decent learning ground, some great people, great clients. And while there, I guess I was quite a far way away from brewing. I was in the risk management and process improvement consultancy space. So doing a lot of work in a range of industries from banking, finance, construction and then fast moving consumer goods. And I think there is where I started to get more of an interest, particularly in the food and beverage space from there, then progressed through some roles at Woolworths Group and at Lion, and that ranged from finance, strategy, customer experience, product management, and then sales. And I think being there, I got to, what really struck me, I guess, working in the beer industry was that infectious passion and camaraderie that was inherent with the craft beer space.
JAMES ATKINSON: That would have struck you at home as well, I would imagine with, you know, when you were a bit younger, with Dad coming home from work.
SCOTT HAHN: Oh, absolutely.
CHUCK HAHN: When he was ever home, he was always out, promoting his products all the time, as you must do.
SCOTT HAHN: Yeah. So I guess I was pushed from multiple angles, I guess the industry that I was working in, but then also having it at home and then just that electricity that I really saw in the industry. So, you know, talking to customers from hotels, pubs, liquor shops, as well as, I guess, home brewers or craft beer experts, you know, one thing that I just loved was that electricity. When you would ask, what’s your favourite beer style at the moment and what kind of occasions do you like to enjoy them? Yeah, many would just, you know, talk my head off around the best beer types, ingredients and origins of ingredients, food matching opportunities. But what was really, interesting was just hearing those stories behind, you know, the newest local brew pub or a craft brewery that was really kind of making its stride. I really wanted to be part of that.
JAMES ATKINSON: And so what’s kind of happened? You know, give us a picture of the last couple of years in terms of, you know, when did you decide that it was going to be a brewery in the inner west and how long did it take to find the right site, etcetera?
Inner West brewery trail
SCOTT HAHN: Yeah, that’s such an important thing, is to find the right site. But I think first and foremost is arguably the Inner West is the heartland of craft beer in Australia. And it’s also an area that, Dad, you spent a lot of time at with the Hahn brewery and the Malt Shovel Brewery. So I guess gravitating towards that vibrant industry and that energy. It was a no brainer to be part of the Inner West. Finding the right site… Yeah, very important. It took some time. We were probably looking passively a good, you know, six to twelve months, but then actively for about six months. So yeah, we got lucky over in St Peters.
JAMES ATKINSON: Yeah. So tell us about the site. It’s Unwin’s Bridge Road, is that right? Yeah, I think I kind of know roughly where it is without knowing the exact spot.
CHUCK HAHN: Well it’s kind of an ideal location. I mean there’s a huge complex, it’s owned by a family and if you had a climbing wall there and a little swimming pool and a coffee roaster and some corporate headquarters from a number of companies. And so it’s just an ideal spot, you know, for people. And it’s right across from a park there too. So it’s ideal for people to come in, have a tour of the brewery, have a couple beers and socialise. So it’s fantastic.
SCOTT HAHN: Yeah, there are a few heritage buildings on the site as well. I think it used to be a steam engine manufacturer back in the 1930s. So there’s that real nice heritage element that comes through the taproom.
JAMES ATKINSON: And what sort of level of taproom will it be? Is it a full brewpub scenario with restaurant-type food offering?
SCOTT HAHN: Yeah, absolutely. I think one thing that I’ve increasingly noticed in the marketplace is the opportunity to have a spiritual home for a brand that really kind of sings and where consumers can really experience that. So we have meticulously poured over all the details of a full-service on-premise venue. So, a full bar. We’re not having a kitchen, but we will have a permanent food trailer. So all the details from the furniture, through to the lighting, we’ve poured over to make sure it’s a really welcoming space, which hopefully you can join us in later today, James.
JAMES ATKINSON: All right, well, not sure about today, but if not today, very soon. How close are we getting to launch? Is the brewery itself actually commissioned?
CHUCK HAHN: We’re in the process of that now, doing some water brews. Over the last several months, we’ve done numerous 20-litre kind of home brew setups just to perfect all the recipes I’ve been thinking about for a long time and some really memorable beers that we’re working on. So I think people will be blown away by what we’ve come up with.
JAMES ATKINSON: Well, let’s talk about that. There’s going to be a few lagers in amongst the mix, I would hazard a guess.
CHUCK HAHN: Yes, a few of those and a few classic amber ales, possibly a few things like that. You’ve got to have a West Coast IPA. Whether we get into the real, the heavy, New England IPAs, the real fuzzy ones that look like you’re drinking orange juice, we probably won’t get stuck into that too much. But more your classic styles, maybe classic German styles, because that’s pretty much my heritage. I mean, Hahn is German, of course, so that’s where we’re coming from. I think some modernised classic German and some Australian in there too. Some Australian styles, of course.
SCOTT HAHN: You know, we’ve really had that opportunity by recruiting Chuck into this of, being able to balance his vast expertise and experience as well as the heritage elements that he brings with, I guess, a little more of a refreshed approach to today’s marketplace and palate. So, as Dad said, bang on in terms of good classic beer types, the icons bring back, as you said, German-style pilsners, American ambers, you know, an original old-school style American Pale Ale. So before the battles of the, the West Coast and the New Englands, just that kind of, one of the original American style pales. But then we’re also looking in the space of the low carb craft as well as well as another traditional style radler. So being able to bring that, I guess, you know, hybrid of that lemon and the beer to the marketplace, particularly for those newer drinkers.
JAMES ATKINSON: Who else is part of the team? And I mean, I’m sure, Chuck, you’ve been working on the recipe development, but wouldn’t imagine that you’ll be in there brewing every single day. So you’ll be putting on a head brewer? And who else is involved, like, from an investment perspective as well? Is it purely a family-funded venture?
CHUCK HAHN: No, we have an excellent head brewer there that, we’ve recruited that used to work for me at Malt Shovel Brewery.
JAMES ATKINSON: Would that be someone I know?
SCOTT HAHN: Well, I guess, first of all, to answer that question around investors, we’ve got a very small team of investors that are all, I guess, passionate about beer.
JAMES ATKINSON: And just to be abundantly clear, it’s an independent operation?
CHUCK HAHN: Very much independent.
SCOTT HAHN: We’re really trying that kind of multipronged approach. We’re a local independent craft offering, and we’re a family-run and owned business.
JAMES ATKINSON: And then from a personnel side of things, Scott, you’ll be, I imagine, running the show essentially, yes?
CHUCK HAHN: I mean, the old fellow here is just the brewmaster. I kind of oversee everything there is about beer.
JAMES ATKINSON: Sure. Yep.
SCOTT HAHN: As well as doing, a lot of the brewing. But, yeah, we’ve been very fortunate that we’ve been able to, recruit quite an experienced brewer who brings a lot of the charisma and charm that we’d want to embody, I guess, our brand. We really kind of, as I’ve said before, the balance between old and new. And I guess that rugged, sophisticated brand is what we’re after in that nostalgic craft. So our head brewer is Richard Van Grootel. And he has had a fair bit of experience in the craft brewery world, from running small breweries through to working for the likes of Malt Shovel when you were there, Dad.
JAMES ATKINSON: Fantastic. And I guess over the last couple of years, since this project was conceived, the market’s turned pretty seriously. The economy’s really taken a dive and we’ve also seen a lot of breweries that are struggling out there at the moment. Has that been something that’s concerning you guys, to be watching as you’re bringing the project to life? Or do you think that you’ve got the recipe to succeed over the longer term, regardless?
SCOTT HAHN: It’s really challenging out there, so we have certainly been following it quite intently and there is a lot of pain out there. We definitely empathise and we are really conscious of it. We are confident in our product and our offering. We do want to focus on that hyper-local market first and grow with intent. So really getting that brand established first and focusing on the channels that we can control the most before growing from there. So I think there’s still an opportunity in the marketplace for that nostalgic craft, for beers that are your go-to that can be in your consistent line-up in your craft beer fridge or a taproom that you repeatedly recommend for those occasions of sociability. But then also I think there’s still that low-carb craft offering to explore too.
CHUCK HAHN: I know most of those brewers, that have had problems, have gone into voluntary administration for various reasons. But I mean, I knew them as they were starting up and saw how, relaxed they were as they went into COVID, trying to survive that and doing a lot of things there that maybe weren’t proper business decisions at that time. And that’s come back to bite them.
JAMES ATKINSON: I guess, around deferring tax?
CHUCK HAHN: Exactly. I mean, ‘oh well, the Government’s going to give us so much free excise. Let’s just try to go as far as we can on that’. But that’s a real debatable issue because Australia pays more excise than almost anyone else in the world. So you’re paying the Government more per litre than you are paying the supplier for your malted barley.
JAMES ATKINSON: Yeah.
CHUCK HAHN: That’s crazy.
JAMES ATKINSON: It’s gotten out of hand.
CHUCK HAHN: It’s gotten out of hand. I mean, at least the Government has started to support some of the small brewers with this, excise-free amount. But back then, you know, that’s only been going for say, the last ten years. But before that, it was a mass struggle. It was terrible. But that’s probably why we have 700 small breweries out there now. Back in ‘88, ‘89, when we were starting up the Hahn brewery, there were only 35 breweries in Australia. Now, there’s 700. It’s just amazing.
JAMES ATKINSON: What are the ambitions for the brand, guys? Like, do you see it kind of staying as a local modest affair, or being Chuck, there’s probably much bigger ambitions than that, I would have thought.
CHUCK HAHN: I think there’s all kinds of opportunity. We just have to see how it grows. And as Scott was saying, we’re going for those classic styles. We’re appealing to those people that just enjoy drinking beer, you know, and enjoy the sociability that evolves from having a beer with your friends and your family and having your kids around. So it’s not like a flash pub or anything like that, but it’s a down-to-earth gathering place near a park where people can come enjoy themselves.
SCOTT HAHN: In terms of the brand itself, we do have big plans, but we’re at the very beginning of that journey. So, you know, one of the things we’re chasing is we’d love to be one of Australia’s most respected and adored independent craft brewer out there. So that’s our North Star and where we’re taking those steps from the beginning of that journey.
JAMES ATKINSON: Now, I bumped into Justin Fox on Marrickville Road and it was him who said, ‘oh, yeah, I’m helping Chuck out with his new brewery’, and I’m like, ‘what?’ And he mentioned to me about the Knappstein equipment that you’ve managed to get your hands on, that’s sort of a feature of the brewery there. So tell me about that.
Knappstein Brewery equipment rehomed
CHUCK HAHN: Well, that was in the Knappstein Enterprise Brewery, which was in Tim Knappstein’s original winery in Clare in South Australia. And that was operated for a number of years. We put that in I think in 2006 or 2007 and then it developed a good brand. It was more like a winemaker’s beer, maybe too sophisticated for everyone at the time, but it was a great brand of beer that we had. And eventually Lion sold that winery and the people that bought it didn’t really want to have the brewery there. So it was taken out and just stored at West End Brewery in Adelaide for a number of years. And then when Lion sold the brewery, they wanted to get rid of the kettles and I said, ‘well, give them to me’. So I got them.
JAMES ATKINSON: Was that your parting gift from Lion?
CHUCK HAHN: But those go way back. You know, they were actually made in Germany and they were in a German brewhouse in Albury and it went out of business and the owner took it out and he had it in his paddock. And so I went out and looked at it and ended up just buying it and then we put it into the brewery there. And so it’s just classic. I mean, they’re a little tarnished right now, but we’re going to shine them up. But, you know, solid copper domes, sort of like the Malt Shovel Brewery.
SCOTT HAHN: They are the centrepiece of our brewery and I think it blends into the brand of the nostalgic craft, old and new blending. What’s also unique is it’s a fully electric brewery. So we’ve been able to retrofit these kettles and also get a brand new brewkit and fermenters around it and it’s worked quite well.
CHUCK HAHN: And the two kettles sit right in front of a 15-metre long bar, wooden bar. So it’s just beautiful.
JAMES ATKINSON: And so are they just for show or?
SCOTT HAHN: It’s a 15 hec brew kit and all the brews go through these two kettles?
CHUCK HAHN: Yeah.
JAMES ATKINSON: Wow. Okay. There’s no sort of constraints with using that equipment versus some of the newer gear that you can get these days.
CHUCK HAHN: No, I mean this adds, another dimension to that. I mean, all of our tanks are all proper stainless steel tanks that have just been delivered. So we have a number of tanks ready to be filled, ready to be enjoyed.
JAMES ATKINSON: And you’ve settled on Chuck and Son’s. It’s important to say Chuck and Son’s, ‘apostrophe s’ rather than ‘Sons’ plural.
CHUCK HAHN: There’s only one son, but Scott has three sons.
JAMES ATKINSON: Yeah, right.
SCOTT HAHN: Yeah.
JAMES ATKINSON: And was it a fairly short conversation that led you to settle on that name? I mean, obviously, unfortunately, the family name was probably pretty off limits. I would have pretty, pretty locked down with your, with Lion, I would have thought.
CHUCK HAHN: Yes, pretty locked down there. Yeah, but I think the whole interesting thing about this, you know, here I was retiring after all these years, but to have your son actually come, ‘Dad, will you come into business with me?’ In brewing, usually it’s the father chasing the son to come into the family business, but here I had retired and then I decided, well, I guess I do have a lot of good ideas to go. I’m not ready to put my head down. And I guess they say, ‘old brewers never die. They just keep hopping along’.
JAMES ATKINSON: And have you shared the news with some of your old colleagues at Lion? Obviously James Brindley’s not there anymore, but other people who are around. What’s the sort of reaction that you’ve got from people when you’ve told them that you’re launching another brewery? Have they said, ‘are you mad?’
CHUCK HAHN: Yeah, ‘you’re bloody mad’. I mean, everyone’s concerned about the environment and we are too, but, you know, we’re prepared for that. You know, I think we’ve got some really good ideas coming forward and the presentation is just coming together. And so, I mean, when you see it, you’ll just say, ‘I can’t believe that’.
JAMES ATKINSON: And will it be packaged beer from the outset or is that something you’ll potentially look at down the track?
SCOTT HAHN: Yes, at the moment, we will be focusing on the taproom and kegs, but then we’ve got meticulous detail in terms of our brand design and the design of cans for our core range. So we will be packaging. So we might start with mobile canning and then transition through to the canning line. So, both brewing and packaging on site.
JAMES ATKINSON: It strikes me that you’re both extremely sort of optimistic about the future of beer. And in the beer category in Australia generally, I mean, there’s a lot of general malaise around beer at the moment. In fact, just this morning the Federal Government released a report from an inquiry they did into competition. And the two major breweries were talking so much about how beer had been in decline for so many years. But, yeah, tell me, what makes you guys positive to invest in the beer category again?
CHUCK HAHN: That’s probably a tricky question, I think. We’re very positive about it, but we’re taking a different angle than a lot of people have taken in getting a craft brewery going. And, I think we’re doing the right thing while we’ve done so much research now, and development in our new styles of beers, in the classic styles, as we say. So we’re not talking about making beer from donuts or anything like that, but we’re just going to make good, solid beers that people can enjoy.
SCOTT HAHN: Yeah, I guess beer continues to be in decline in Australia and, you know, you could argue that we may have been drinking quite a lot as a culture, so it could have normalised a little bit. You know, drinking better, I think, is still a trend. But then also, with economic challenges, is going to something that you can feel comfortable with. And so those kind of classic styles that we mentioned is something that we’re really pushing. But I think also that, Dad, you’ve talked to me about that, unification. You know, beer unifies.
CHUCK HAHN: You know, you can say, wine gentrifies, beer unifies, socialise. I mean, people want a social interaction and that’s what we’re giving them, besides good beer, and we look forward to welcoming people into this new brewery in the next couple months, for sure.
Kosciuszko Brewery at Banjo Paterson Hotel
JAMES ATKINSON: Chuck, one other thing I was going to ask you was, are you still putting some brews down in Jindabyne at the Banjo Paterson hotel? Yeah. Is that still happening?
CHUCK HAHN: Well, the little Kosciuszko Brewery there, that brand has grown quite independently over the last ten years to be a reasonable-sized brand. But we’re still, Lion wanted to keep the brewery going there as the birthplace of Kosciusko Pale Ale. So I agree, I mean we’ve got a unit down there. I get down there for skiing and everything else. And so I’ve said, well I’ll put a brew through every month or so just to keep the birthplace of it open.
JAMES ATKINSON: Nice. You’re still, the brewmaster down there?
CHUCK HAHN: Yeah, I’ve got a really good brewmaster, assistant brewer down there. That’s probably more of an independent brewer than anyone else, but his name’s Dominic and he’s doing a great job down there.
JAMES ATKINSON: Excellent. Well gents, what’s the timeline from hereon in? I think you’ve just said that the brewery is nearly up and running. What about the actual taproom? What has to happen? Are there any hurdles in terms of approvals, and everything else that, that you’ve got to get sorted?
SCOTT HAHN: Yeah, we’re working through all that now. So we have our liquor licence and various development approvals. We’re chasing down an opening date of middle of May. So yeah, it’s looking good so far.
JAMES ATKINSON: And in the meantime, can people find you on social media?
SCOTT HAHN: Yes, yes they can. ‘Chuck and Son’s Brewing’ on Instagram and Facebook,
JAMES ATKINSON: You’ve quietly launched there, but will hopefully pick up a few more followers off the back of this episode. Well, guys, thanks so much for coming in. I’m really, really excited to come and try the beers. I’m sure they’ll be stellar, I don’t have any doubts on that. And also to see the space that you’ve created.
SCOTT HAHN: Fantastic. Thanks, James.
CHUCK HAHN: Thanks, James. Good talking to you.
